Diskusjon:Thita Rangsitpol Manitkul

Relevans?

På andre wikier står det at hun er eller har vært parlamentsmedlem (nasjonalforsamlingen i Thailand I presume). Det innebærer normalt relevans. --Vennlig hilsen Erik d.y. 26. jun. 2019 kl. 15:21 (CEST)

Hun er veldig slettet world wide. Da denne starta ble det laget artikkel på vesentlig flere språk enn det nå er. Det er nå igjen 3 språkversjoner i tillegg til norsk som fortsatt har denne artikkelen. Artikkeloppretter er globalt blokkert [[1]]. Her har også vært ganske mye sokkedukkeaktivitet. Både denne og artikkelen om faren hennes bærer preg av at det foregår en kamp om innhold og rosende omtaler i flere artikler i hovedrommet. Til nå har det meste av aktiviteten jeg har sett fremstått som en slags kampanje for datter og far.

- Nå har vi også fått en bruker som vil ha denne slettet i de gjenværende tre språkversjonene [[2]], se simple english [[3]], fransk [[4]] og tysk [[5]].

- Jeg har stadig vekk åpnet de lenkene som tilbys i artikkelen og blir stort sett skuffet. Noen nevner henne ikke (også thailandske navn er søkbare) andre gir ikke noen vesentlig informasjon selv om det ikke er godt nok å undersøke innhold i thailandske tekster med oversettelsesmaskiner så gir det en indikasjon. Den eneste så vidt jeg kan se er en lenke til en pdf som er på engelsk hvor hennes navn nevnes og hvor hun tilsynelatende har vært parlamentsmedlem. Denne pdf-en er imidlertid et vedlegg til ett eller annet, en oppgave, artikkel e.l. og jeg har ikke klart å finne ut hva den er vedlegg til. Det betyr at den har liten verdi som referanse.

- Hn eller de som har engasjert seg i å revidere denne artikkelen og artikkelen om faren samt tilhørende herligheter er veldig ivrige, behersker ikke helt engelsk og har problemer med å finne ut av hva som kan være gode referanser. Her lenkes åpenbart til alt mulig og "umulig" hvor hennes navn er nevnt (eller ikke nevnt i noen tilfelle). Brukeren som nå vil ha denne slettet på de 4 gjenværende språkene virker mer profesjonell. Vedkommende har gått ganske systematisk til verks i 4 språkversjoner.

- Jeg mistenker på grunn av det vedlegget som fremstår som laget til et akademisk formål at det er riktig at hun har vært parlamentsmedlem, men har pt gitt opp å få noen form for skikk på artikkelen. Det mangler pålitelig referanse på at hun har vært parlamentsmedlem. Hadde jeg kunnet thai er det mulig jeg hadde funnet noe i aviser på det språket, men det kan jeg altså ikke lese. Jeg har igrunnet avventet denne i håp om at det skulle dukke opp en referanse på at hun har vært parlamentsmedlem som var brukanes. Bare én skikkelig referanse hadde vært nok til å etablere relevans selv om det ikke ville være nok til å få en god artikkel. --ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 26. jun. 2019 kl. 18:50 (CEST)

Har EN WP høyere terskel for å regne politikere (parlamentsmedlemmer) som notable? Dersom det ikke blir skikk på artikkelen kan den godt slettes for min del. Men kanskje noen som kjenner thailandske forhold kan bidra med kvalitetskontroll? Av kilder og slkt. Vennlig hilsen Erik d.y. 26. jun. 2019 kl. 19:03 (CEST)

Discussion in English

@Erik den yngre, Dyveldi: Hello. I would like to explain the rationale behind the flagging of this article. A rough translation of this article (as it stands here) shows that she was a politician (and that you mentioned the discussion in SimpleWP and my edits in other Wikis, it can be very well interpreted as the "canvassing" vote), but it doesn't describe any political background of her. It merely provides the educational background with a few sources that support it (the newspaper, likely in 1999, appears to support the fact that she is an MP at the time and that she graduated with Bachelor's Degree from Chulalongkorn University, and an unidentified Masters' Degree from the United States). The Cambridge Academic Journal that you may have found in SimpleWP is an attachment to an academic journal, but it doesn't show where it sourced the information from.

I am not certain how the Notability Guidelines for politician (Hjelp:Politikere) plays in this noWP. Although the newspaper (cited in Reference 3) may be used to establish that she was an MP and that her notability may warrant its article Nevertheless, I am still convinced that there should be more sources that establish this, or at least there should be a description of her political career. The problem that plagued the article in enWP, SimpleWP and ThaiWP is that it tried to push the project alleged to conceived by her (the so-called "Youth Drug Rehabilitation Boot Camp" and the initiative to raise the minimum wage of the conscript), but the sources that back it up rarely mentioned her at all. Given that there hasn't been any problem in that manner in noWP but the subject is not sufficiently mentioned, I decided to flag the notability issue.

I would like to point out that in thWP, I tried to encourage the creator to improve the coverage by fixing the issues about undocumented claims (and finding the better source that is not just a "passing mention"), and the issue on the "praising subject" tone, but the sandbox saw no improvement, English Wikipedia or Thai Wikipedia alike, and many IPs/Users just submitted the unrevised draft that was repeatedly deleted. However, since enWP, SimpleWP and thWP has no jurisdiction over noWP (given that a thWP administrator who asked for the deletion of the article by relying on the ground used in enWP has his Speedydelete tag removed, alleging that the ground used in enWP is not valid here), I will leave the issue at your discretion, though I find myself necessary to address the issue mentioned above. --G(x) (diskusjon) 27. jun. 2019 kl. 07:56 (CEST)

She is not listed among the 500 elected to the parliament in the article en:2001 Thai general election (her father is, though). - 4ing (diskusjon) 27. jun. 2019 kl. 09:56 (CEST)

@4ing: Thank you for bringing up the issue. I have another look at the newspaper and saw that the newspaper did indeed describe the education credentials, but not the fact that she is an MP. I have crossed out some of my comments above. Although I managed to find some of the sources that describe her position as an MP (as it was alleged that she was elevated in the party list to replace the top members of the list who went on to become the Minister), the sources is some thesis that describes the party-switching. That said, the thesis may constitute the original research. RYT9 (which I described in simpleWP discussion to be a syndicated news agency) seems to be the only source that can prove it, though this source is too week. --G(x) (diskusjon) 27. jun. 2019 kl. 10:58 (CEST)

On Norwegian WP all MPs (legislature at the national level, national Assembly) are basically notable. So we need credible sources, preferably in English. Other notable positions include elected municipal leaders (mayors) and cabinet members (including their deputies). Vennlig hilsen Erik d.y. 27. jun. 2019 kl. 10:44 (CEST)

I cannot find the Thai sources that support the elevation of this person to MP (at least for now, even in the Government Gazette), let alone English sources. Other editors are welcome to put the sources, as shown in an editor trying to put "The Nation" news article. So far, this is the source that may establish the notability. I still expect the article to describe the political career, though. --G(x) (diskusjon) 27. jun. 2019 kl. 10:58 (CEST)

The appendix I referred to above [[6]] is published on a domain owned by Cambridge University Press.
- The article was after a discussion deleted in English WP November 2018, but instead of deletion it was moved to w:en:User:RJFF/Thita Manitkul. This was probably a wise decision since the page still is edited with a lot of energy and enthusiasm which now have a place to go instead of recreating a deleted article over an over again. This is also typical of the revision history of the page which has an unusual amount of sock puppets and inxeperienced users. I am glad someone have tried to contact the editors or at least one because I have given up trying to figure out who to ask what this appendix was attached to.
- In the end i asked CUP what the appendix was attached to and lo and behold they answered very quickly. The source is

• Nishizaki, Yoshinori (2018/05). «New Wine in an Old Bottle: Female Politicians, Family Rule, and Democratization in Thailand». The Journal of Asian Studies. 2 (engelsk). 77: 375–403. ISSN 0021-9118. doi:10.1017/S002191181700136X. Besøkt 27. juni 2019. 
  

The appendix is referred to at the very end of the article and the link which at present is inline citation no 1 in w:en:User:RJFF/Thita Manitkul can be found as Supplementary material at the top of the page. I have access through the university library I belong to. The article is probably behind a paywall and I do not know if the supplementary material is as well.
- The appendix is «A list of Thai female MPs elected since 1975 and their kinship ties .. ». The source lists her province as a party list and since I do not know this parlimentary system I do not know what this means. It seems to me clear that she was elected as member of parliament i 2001 and not reelected in 2005. I judge this source as reliable. --ツ^ツDyveldi^{☯ prat} _{✉ post} 27. jun. 2019 kl. 20:17 (CEST)