Diskusjon:Ottar fra Hålogaland

Trenger bilder

Vi trenger illustrasjoner her. Har noen noe å bidra med? Jeg foreslår et kart over Nord-Europa med piler som viser Ottars reise. Jeg tror jeg skal kunne lage det. Dette hadde også vært flott med et kunstnerisk portrett av Ottar, men jeg kjenner ikke til at noen har gjort noe slikt. --Finn Bjørklid 9. jul 2005 kl.20:29 (UTC)

Hvalross. Jeg tok med en lenke til en ganske bra nettside om hvalross og man kan undre seg på hvorfor. Det er to kart på den som viser hvalrossens vandringer vintertid og sommertid. Det er kun vintertid at den er inne ved Kolahalvøya. Mulig det var annerledes for mer enn 1000 år siden, men det tror jeg ikke. Det var sannsynligvis gjennomsnittelig 5 grader varmer den gang og da trakk hvalrossen neppe lengre syd enn i dag, heller tvert om. Poenget er at Ottar ikke forteller når han tar Nordishavreisen, men sier at han fanget hvalross (eller kjøpte han kun hvalrossbein?). Var reisen av en slik varighet at han også seilte om vinteren? Bare noen tanker. --Finn Bjørklid 12. jul 2005 kl.08:28 (UTC)

Vi burde egentlig hatt en artikkel om Hvalross på wikipedia. Jeg fører det opp på ønskelisten. Profoss 12. jul 2005 kl.17:22 (UTC)

Angående artikkelen om Ottar fra Hålogaland, så står det om hans møter med "finnene (Samene)" og det lurer jeg på om er faktabasert? Hvordan vet artikkelforfatter at det var samer? Det var jo finlendere i omløp også, og Ottar skrev vel selv om hans møte med kvenene? Takk Mal:Usigert

I de norrøne tekstene ble samer kalt for finner. Kvener var noe som kom flere hundre år senere. --Finn Bjørklid 20. jul 2010 kl. 03:13 (CEST)

Det er bra at Ottars beretning er lagt ut her, og for det meste fint kommentert. Jeg reagerer på polemiske innslag som ”Mange navn fra vikingtiden er preget av samtidens voldelige adferd, men Ottar er et unntak i så måte.” Hva menes med mange navn? Og hva er voldelig atferd? Dette bør enten strykes eller erstattes av en saklig framstilling av kildeproblemer ang denne tiden. Til slutt kommer sitatet fra antropologen som virker umotivert her. "Ottar er blitt brukt som et bevis på en gryende nasjonal tilhørighet på slutten av 800-tallet. Dette tilbakevises av blant andre arkeolog Terje Østigård som mener at Dette synet på etnisitet og hvordan man kan analysere etnisitet i fortidige samfunn, representerer en slutningsrekke av faktafeil og begrepssammenblandinger ut fra en antropologisk og arkeologisk forståelse av hva etnisitet er.[1" Her polemiseres det mot en ukjent og fraværende opponent, noe som ikke hører hjemme i et oppslagsverket som etterstreber saklighet og objektivitet. Jeg vil også påpeke kildelenken til Ottars rejseskildring – Dansk oversettelse ikke virket for meg, og at søket på Guteberg ikke ga treff. http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Ohthere

Haakon Bull-Hansen (h@bull-hansen.no)

Please review the map

Map showing the principal places mentioned in Ohthere's account: modern scholarship has commonly identified Ohthere's Sciringes heal with Skíringssalr, a historical site near Larvik, but it may have been located slightly west of Lindesnes, the southern tip of modern Norway. Also it is unclear whether it is Ireland or Iceland that was mentioned in his original account.

Apologies for writing in English. The map that appears in this article was previously used in the English article en:Ohthere of Hålogaland, but now the English article is more fully developed than it was and uses the map shown here. This is because, as I believe, the older map is seriously in error. You may wish to review my comments on the Talk page for the older map here and consider using the map shown here instead. Thanks for reading. Nortonius (diskusjon) 2. mai 2015 kl. 19:09 (CEST)

I agree that the map used both in Ladejarlene and here in Ottar fra Hålogaland has its weaknesses and that it is «simplistic and over-precise». But my first impression of your new map is that it is too un-precise. For instance:

• We do not know whether Bjarmeland was on the western or the eastern shore of the White Sea. But the name shold be on the map. Ottar did not mention «The White Sea».
• Ottars home is not mentioned. The name Hålogaland is printed from Namsos to Narvik. We know that Ottar did not live in Namsos. There are archeological proves that there was a settlement in Borg in Lofoten 400 years before Ottar, and that the settlement was still there 100 years after him. This is on the top of the second «A» in Hålogaland, and Ottar says he "lives most north of all Norwegians". Malangen is proposed - it is north of the word.
• I have noticed that Kjell-Olav Masdalen (living in Arendal, not far away from Lindesnes) have presented a hypothesis that Sciringes heal was not located in Vestfold, but by Lindesnes. I am not convinced so far.
• The map does not indicate (by arrows) whether Ottar sailed east or west of Jylland on his way to Hedeby.
• The letters seem too big in my opinion. This underline the impression of a too unprecise map.

All in all - in my opinion this map gives too little information about Ottars travels. Andewa (diskusjon) 2. mai 2015 kl. 22:14 (CEST)

Thank you for the response! I think my main point is that, reading the report that we have of Ohthere's account, it is best to illustrate it as minimally as possible. The present map does, I am convinced, go too far. You are quite correct that Ohthere does not mention the White Sea, but historiography of the later 20th and 21st centuries is, I believe, agreed on that point, more than it is on the location of "Bjarmaland": Ohthere went to the White Sea. Perhaps we just need to find a better way of expressing that. Given the disagreement over the location of "Bjarmaland", how should it be marked on a map? Perhaps that could be resolved simply by saying in the caption that "White Sea" indicates the likely location of the land of the Beormas. Regarding Ohthere's home, he is reported as claiming that it was furthest north of all Norwegians, in "Halgoland", so I think it is adequate to indicate Hålogaland on this map as best we can and leave the rest to the reader. Regarding Kjell-Olav Masdalen, I'm not "convinced" either – I'm not a specialist, I just happen to have a copy of Thorpe's 1900 edition of the Old English Orosius – but I am convinced that Masdalen has an argument, which is as far as we can go in Wikipedia. And indicating any "route" by arrows is precisely the kind of thing that concerns me: we cannot know. In the end, I'm not pushing the map that I have introduced here, but trying to move on from the map that is in use at present: if something better can be agreed upon, whatever that is, then that can only be good. Cheers. Nortonius (diskusjon) 3. mai 2015 kl. 01:36 (CEST)

I agree with Andewa. Relocating saga sites is an old and infamous exercise for local historicans in Norway, we should not pay attention to it (se also this about St Olafs newly alleged birthplace). Replacing the term «Bjarmaland», used by Ottar, with another name not used by him, is misguiding. bw M O Haugen (diskusjon) 3. mai 2015 kl. 15:48 (CEST)

Thank you also, that's interesting; but have you read Birgisson's article of 2008, or Masdalen's of 2010? As I say, I'm not "convinced", except that there is doubt. Regarding "Bjarmaland", Ohthere/Ottar does not mention that either, he only speaks of "Beormas" and their land, and says that their country was well-cultivated; he doesn't actually speak of "Bjarmaland", so that comes later, and still we don't know exactly where it was. Nortonius (diskusjon) 3. mai 2015 kl. 17:00 (CEST)

Do you mean the same Einar Gunnar Birgisson that presents himself as an «Independent Alternative Medicine Professional» on LinkedIn? He have published a (no) pamplet about this on his own expence in 2006, and a non-academic article in 2008. No, I haven't read either. But I can still regocnize a fringe theory when i hear about one.

As for Kjell-Olav Masdalen, his cited work on this (Med fuldkommen Ret - Hvor lå Skiringes heal?), which he have tried to plant into some articles on Wikipedia, is no longer available on the home page of his workplace, it is not listed neither in NORART nor in (no) Bibsys. If the text on Bruker:Masdalen is representative for his opinion and work, it is mainly a reference to Birgisson and a discussion. No new archeological evidence seem to be introduced. Bw M O Haugen (diskusjon) 3. mai 2015 kl. 17:48 (CEST)

That is interesting about Birgisson, thank you, I'll probably update the English article for Ohthere/Ottar based on that. Regarding Masdalen, his cited work is no longer available at aaks.no because the website has been updated – only one edition of Aust-Agder-Arv is available to view there, from 2013, and that is the most recent of the editions listed – so the earlier editions may yet become available, and in any case this is not specific to Masdalen. Do you regard Aust-Agder-Arv as an unreliable source? Also, if you read Masdalen's cited work, it does not depend upon Birgisson, and they do not agree except in doubting the accepted identification of Scringes heal with Skiringssal. Please do read Masdalen and let me know what you think. I can email you a .pdf if you like – I'm only sorry that I did not archive it online when I could. I would ordinarily have been suspicious of someone "planting" an article into Wikipedia, but for the fact that, from the perspective of an English non-specialist in Scandinavian history, Aust-Agder-Arv looks to be a reliable source. Also, while Masdalen may indeed be advancing a "fringe theory", if the source is reliable, then it is reasonable to take account of it in Wikipedia; and research frequently requires swimming against the tide.

You say that no new archaeological evidence seems to have been introduced. It would take a very special kind of archaeological evidence to prove that Ohthere/Ottar's Sciringes heal was identical with Skiringssal, and as far as I know that has not been found. Masdalen's arguments are instead philological, in that Skiringssalr would quite possibly have been rendered into Old English as "Sciringes sele", not "Sciringes heal", and that, in Old English, Sciringes heal would likely refer to a geographical feature rather than a building; and geographical, in that Ohthere/Ottar's description of sailing to Sciringes heal does not appear to fit sailing to Skiringssal.

But I did not come here to defend either Birgisson or Masdalen, and as far as that goes I would say again that I'm not "convinced" by Masdalen, only that there is doubt. As far as I can tell, and as Masdalen says, Sciringes heal has been equated with Skiringssal through nothing more than the archaeological discovery of a trading place at Kaupang and a hall at nearby Huseby: to my mind, and whatever one thinks of Masdalen, that is illogical. Also, all of this addresses only one aspect of my doubts about the map currently in use in this article. Disagreement has also been expressed regarding how to illustrate "Bjarmaland", but what of the other points? And, if you feel that you could improve on the map that I have presented here, then please do that! As I said before, if something better can be agreed upon, whatever that is, then that can only be good! And thank you again for the responses, to be honest I was not really expecting any! Regards. Nortonius (diskusjon) 4. mai 2015 kl. 17:28 (CEST)

I have sent you the .pdf by email as requested, M O Haugen, please let me know if you have received it – for some reason my email software has recently decided to show my "Sent" messages only when it feels like it! Cheers. Nortonius (diskusjon) 4. mai 2015 kl. 22:01 (CEST)

Email received, Nortonius. I'm not too familiar with Aust-Agder Arv - other than that I have a general impression of the genre it is a part of, but it is not a specialized journal neither for archeology nor linguistics. Bw --M O Haugen (diskusjon) 4. mai 2015 kl. 22:34 (CEST)

Great, thank you! Nortonius (diskusjon) 4. mai 2015 kl. 22:37 (CEST)